Horizon scandal: Ex-Post Office executive ‘doesn’t recall’ learning Horizon could alter accounts

One of many key elements of proof that former Publish Workplace Government Angela Van Den Bogerd was pressed over was the small print of when she turned conscious that Fujitsu workers may entry department accounts remotely

Former Publish Workplace boss Angela Van Den Bogerd stated she “would not recall” being advised that Horizon pc operators may remotely entry sub-postmasters’ department accounts.

Ms Van Den Bogerd, who held quite a few positions on the Publish Workplace throughout her 35-year profession, was questioned about why she had advised a sub-postmistress, who was sacked and fined, that distant entry wasn’t attainable when she’d been advised it was.

A few of the 700 plus sub-postmasters who had been prosecuted claimed figures on their department accounts had been being modified on the Horizon system – however not by them.

Ms Van Den Bogerd opened her proof on the Horizon IT Inquiry on Thursday saying she is “really sorry” for the “devastation” induced to wrongly convicted sub-postmasters.

However she stated she did the “finest I may”, including: “I didn’t knowingly do something incorrect, and I might by no means knowingly do something incorrect.”

Ms Van Den Bogerd – who oversaw the prosecutions of sub-postmasters – as an alternative blamed Horizon developer Fujitsu for not being “clear” together with her and the Publish Workplace.

The previous government, who was performed by Coronation Road actress Katherine Kelly within the ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Publish Workplace, was a key determine within the occasions as the previous individuals companies director at Publish Workplace Ltd and programme director for the department assist programme.

Van Den Bogerd claims she forgot about 2010 electronic mail about distant entry

Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC requested her if she had “airbrushed” from her thoughts the truth that Horizon developer Fujitsu had distant entry to accounts.

She claimed she solely turned conscious in 2011 that workers of Fujitsu – the Japanese tech agency that developed the defective IT system – may in concept have distant entry.

In her witness assertion given to the inquiry she had written: “Pre-2011, I had no data of the power of Fujitsu workers to change transaction information in department accounts with out the data or consent of SPMS [sub-postmasters].”

However Mr Beer pointed to an electronic mail she obtained on December 5, 2010 from the organisation’s common supervisor of community assist, Lynn Hobbs, who stated she had “discovered that Fujitsu can really put an entry right into a department account remotely”.

Angela Van Den Bogerd, former Head of Partnerships on the Publish Workplace, confronted questions from ITV Information UK Editor Paul Model as she arrived on the Publish Workplace Inquiry

Placing it to her that she had in truth obtained that info in 2010, Ms Van Den Bogerd stated: “I don’t really bear in mind receiving these emails.”

After being pressed additional, she acknowledged she was provided that info “in that electronic mail chain, sure”.

Stating her witness assertion the place she stated she had “no data”, Mr Beer stated: “That is not proper is it? Since you’d been advised about it within the electronic mail on the fifth December.”

“However as I stated, I do not ever bear in mind seeing that in December,” she replied.

“That is a special factor whether or not now you bear in mind 14 years later receiving an electronic mail,” Mr Beer pressed. “You are saying within the witness assertion right here ‘I had no data of the power’, when in truth you probably did have data since you’d been despatched that electronic mail.”

He additional requested: “Is what is actually taking place right here is that you simply’re telling us that you simply don’t recollect it as a result of you already know the e-mail of December 5, 2010 presents you with an issue?”

She responded: “No not all – I want I had remembered that info.”

The inquiry heard that whereas giving proof within the Mr Bates vs the Publish Workplace Excessive Court docket case in March 2019, Ms Van Den Bogerd stated she first knew about distant entry “within the final yr or so”.

Mr Beer requested: “That’s false isn’t it?”

She replied: “On the time I didn’t assume it was.”

Van Den Bogerd advised sacked sub-postmistress Horizon couldn’t be accessed remotely

The inquiry was additionally proven a transcript of a January 2011 assembly between Ms Van Den Bogerd and sub-postmistress Rachpal Athwal and her husband Val, after Ms Athwal was wrongly accused of stealing £710 and sacked.

Within the assembly, Ms Van Den Bogerd stated that Horizon couldn’t be accessed remotely by anybody from the Publish Workplace, with out mentioning that Fujitsu may, the inquiry heard.

Ms Van Den Bogerd maintained what she stated was “correct”, however Mr Beer accused her of “not being open” about Fujitsu’s entry.

Mr Beer requested: “Are you saying that what you stated total there’s correct?”

She stated: “So that’s correct. I am going on to speak later about Fujitsu, I imagine.

“However by way of what I stated there that was correct. No person in Publish Workplace may get into the system then and I nonetheless don’t assume anybody can now, even right now.”

Emails from 2011 and 2014 about distant entry proven to inquiry

Mr Beer stated she additionally obtained emails in January 2011 and April 2014 discussing distant entry.

The inquiry was proven a 2014 electronic mail despatched from communications employee, Melanie Corfield, to a number of Publish Workplace bosses, together with Ms Van Den Bogerd.

It learn: “Our present line, if we’re requested about distant entry getting used to alter department information or transactions, is just ‘this isn’t and has by no means been attainable’.”

Ms Van Den Bogerd stated she doesn’t bear in mind if she challenged the “false traces”, regardless of understanding this was the case.

She insisted it was not a “cover-up” and that she “should have missed” the e-mail, including: “If it had registered with me, I might have challenged it.”

One of many key messages given to Ms Van Den Bogerd forward of a 2015 BBC Panorama programme – Bother on the Publish Workplace – was that “there’s nothing incorrect with the pc system”, the inquiry heard.

A briefing doc additionally stated “that is about lacking cash, which now we have an obligation to guard” and “we don’t management the authorized course of”.

Ms Van Den Bogerd did, nonetheless, agree with Mr Beer that Publish Workplace chiefs had been later trying to “management the narrative” through the use of the phrases “exception or anomaly” to explain recognized bugs or defects within the Horizon system.

‘You don’t apologise for something that you simply did incorrect, do you?’

However Mr Beer earlier throughout proof identified she had not apologised for her personal position within the scandal in her witness assertion.

Ms Van Den Bogerd stated: “I’ve mirrored on this fairly a bit and the disclosure that I’ve seen by this course of, there are issues that, paperwork that I’ve seen that… clearly understanding what I do know now, I might give additional weight to a few of these paperwork than I did on the time, so they might have extra significance.

“So issues that I might need missed on the time I actually remorse that and need I’d been in a position to see that again then.”

Mr Beer pressed once more, asking: “You don’t apologise for something that you simply did incorrect, do you?”

Secret tapes, obtained by ITV Information present Ms Van Den Bogerd was warned of wrongful conviction six years earlier than an harmless sub-postmaster was cleared

She responded: “I apologise for not attending to the reply extra shortly. However with the proof I had and the parameters of my position on the time, I did the very best I may to the very best of my capability.”

She had opened her proof admitting that “saying sorry I do know doesn’t change what’s occurred” in an announcement that she learn to the inquiry.

“However I do need to say to everybody impacted by wrongful convictions and wrongful contract terminations that I’m really, really sorry for the devastation induced to you, your loved ones and mates,” she continued.

“I hope my proof will help this inquiry with attending to the solutions you and so many others deserve.”

Van Den Bogerd stated she give up attributable to being ‘disillusioned’ with compensation course of

Ms Van Den Bogerd held numerous roles all through her 35-year profession on the Publish Workplace, beginning off as a community change operations supervisor, then on to go of community companies, head of partnerships, director of assist companies and the director of individuals and alter.

She was appointed because the Publish Workplace’s enterprise enchancment director in 2018, however stepped down from the position in 2020.

Ms Van Den Bogerd advised the inquiry she left due to delays in compensating sub-postmasters, saying she was “disillusioned” with the method.

She denied it was as a result of in 2019 decide Mr Justice Fraser stated she “obfuscated” and “misled” the Excessive Court docket throughout authorized motion introduced by a whole lot of subpostmasters.

Ms van den Bogerd was made redundant by the Publish Workplace, in accordance with her witness assertion.

Ms van den Bogerd stated there have been “rumblings” of points with the Horizon system way back to 2004.

She denied that chiefs tried to “drip a little bit poison” into MPs’ ears as a part of “a deliberate technique” to make out sub-postmasters had been tempted to steal from tills.

Earlier in April a secret recording, obtained by ITV Information, revealed Ms Van Den Bogerd, was advised in January 2015 that the organisation had “materially misled” the courts in prosecuting Carl Web page – a sub-postmaster from Staffordshire.

Ms Van Den Bogerd is heard within the recording agreeing with impartial investigator Ron Warmington that “we have to take one other take a look at this,” confirming he had supplied “additional info that’s materials to this case”.

Nevertheless, Mr Web page heard nothing from Ms Van Den Bogerd or anybody on the Publish Workplace after this assembly. His conviction was not overturned for one more six years.

In that point, Mr Web page tried to take his personal life because of the affect the wrongful conviction had on his psychological well being and his life.

Lower than 4 weeks after the assembly between Ms Van Den Bogerd and Mr Warmington, she was known as to present proof to MPs about Horizon alongside then Publish Workplace chief government Paula Vennells.

She sat subsequent to Ms Vennells because the Publish Workplace boss advised the committee that the organisation had discovered no proof of any miscarriages of justice.

Ms Van Den Bogerd advised MPs there’s “not a tradition of denial” on the Publish Workplace, “now we have not dragged our toes” and that she had “accomplished an intensive investigation” into a whole lot of circumstances.

When ITV Information approached Ms Van Den Bogerd for remark, she stated: “I’m cooperating absolutely with the Inquiry and will likely be giving proof later this month. I can’t be making any remark outdoors the Inquiry course of.”

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A Publish Workplace spokesperson stated: “We reiterate our heartfelt apology to victims within the Horizon IT Scandal and our focus stays on supporting the continued Public Inquiry to ascertain the reality of what occurred so these affected can obtain the justice and redress they so deserve.”

Second Sight’s Mr Warmington advised ITV Information he couldn’t touch upon the recording as he has been designated a Core Participant within the ongoing Publish Workplace Inquiry and have undertaken confidentiality agreements.

The inquiry is coming into phases 5 and 6, which examines governance, redress and the way the Publish Workplace and others responded to the scandal.

The Publish Workplace has come below fireplace because the broadcast of ITV drama Mr Bates Vs The Publish Workplace, which put the Horizon scandal below the highlight.

The Horizon scandal led to a whole lot of sub-postmasters being wrongly convicted of fraud as a defective IT system made it seem that that they had misplaced cash.

Consequently, the government-owned organisation prosecuted greater than 700 sub-postmasters and handed down prison convictions between 1999 and 2015.

Lots of are nonetheless awaiting compensation, regardless of the federal government saying these whose convictions had been quashed are eligible for £600,000 payouts.