Gracie Abrams and Kaia Gerber on Therapy, Taylor, and Unrequited Crushes

Gracie Abrams is over sad-girl music. After making a mark as a moody singer-songwriter and opening for megastars like Olivia Rodrigo and Taylor Swift, the 24-year-old is entering into her feel-better period with a sophomore album that also mines the bittersweet ache of younger love, however with a smirk. Forward of the discharge of The Secret of Us, the Los Angeles-born musician obtained on a name along with her pal Kaia Gerber to speak about unrequited crushes, publicity remedy, and spinning out.

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FRIDAY 1:30 PM MAY 3, 2024 NYC

KAIA GERBER: Hello.

GRACIE ABRAMS: Thanks for doing this. The place are you?

GERBER: I’m in New York.

ABRAMS: Are you going to do the slumber celebration on Sunday?

GERBER: Sure.

ABRAMS: Nice. We will speak about that later.

GERBER: Okay. I’ve numerous questions for you. I mainly rewrote the entire interview. There have been questions on there that I wouldn’t need to be requested, so I made a decision to not put you thru that both.

ABRAMS: Oh, wow. Like what?

GERBER: About your mother and father.

ABRAMS: God, you’re a genius.

GERBER: Let’s fucking rock. I additionally simply watched your music video.

ABRAMS: Oh, god. Isn’t it humorous?

GERBER: It’s unimaginable. You’re having a lot enjoyable in it.

ABRAMS: Yeah. Additionally, are we beginning? Ought to we begin?

GERBER: Let’s begin.

Gown, Hat, and Stole Vaquero.

ABRAMS: Oh, we’re beginning. Okay, nice. We’re not truly on digital camera, proper? I haven’t had sizzling water in every week, and my hair’s actually soiled.

MEKALA RAJAGOPAL: No, no. We’re not going to make use of the video for something.

GERBER: Nice. Okay. Gracie.

ABRAMS: Alright, Kaia. Let’s go.

GERBER: So, you’re a individual of steadiness, softness, and presence.

ABRAMS: Oh, thanks.

GERBER: How do these rules affect your songwriting course of?

ABRAMS: I’m a really impulsive author, so presence is required there to some extent, however I additionally suppose that I really feel in extremes. So, I don’t understand how a lot steadiness I convey to the songwriting course of, to be sincere. [Laughs] Did you say softness?

GERBER: Mm-hmm.

ABRAMS: I really feel like I faucet into that facet extra with manufacturing reasonably than songwriting. I’m form of a scathing author.

GERBER: I believe on this album perhaps greater than ever.

ABRAMS: Did they ship it to you?

GERBER: I obtained to hear to 5 songs, which I beloved. And to your level of being an impulsive songwriter, how are you aware when it’s time to show an expertise right into a track? Does it really feel past your management or is it one thing that you simply resolve?

ABRAMS: It does really feel past my management, which is a little bit embarrassing. It’s all the time been my outlet. So every little thing comes out in that approach finally, just like the vomit equal of getting one thing down on paper.

GERBER: Proper. And also you’ve talked about confiding in writing from a younger age reasonably than confiding in different people. How did that early behavior of processing your feelings form your songwriting right now?

ABRAMS: My songwriting course of has modified fairly drastically since I began touring, post-pandemic. The quarantine side didn’t change the course of my social life a lot. However after the actual fact, once I obtained to expertise touring for the primary time, that was a type of publicity remedy that I truly beloved leaning into, and it shocked me. It’s undoubtedly influenced my writing in each capability—not solely realizing the sort of music that I need to be performing and that I need to hear being screamed again at me, but in addition the best way that I’m with folks.

Gown Loewe.

GERBER: Proper.

ABRAMS: There are days the place you don’t need to stand on an elevated floor and sing for an hour and a half. However processing emotions by music in entrance of individuals has additionally modified the best way I deal with my private relationships. I really feel like I’m in a position to communicate to my shut associates about large emotions within the second, reasonably than wanting to cover them away for months earlier than telling anybody I felt any sort of approach.

GERBER: Yeah. How do you separate the intimacy of the writing course of from the exposing nature of performing?

ABRAMS: With Good Riddance [Abrams’ debut album], I felt like I used to be consistently saying, “I can’t put this out.”

GERBER: [Laughs]

ABRAMS: However then with The Secret of Us—I felt like we have been Tasmanian devils, me and Audrey [Hobert]. After we have been writing a number of these songs, we have been tearing issues aside metaphorically, and blowing up the crushes and bitterness we have been feeling. It was straightforward to make the drama really feel satirical, and the amplification of it made it approach simpler to place it out, writing with a wink the entire time.

GERBER: That rings so true within the “Threat” music video, as a result of it’s such as you’re having these big emotions, however you’re in a position to make enjoyable of your self. There’s this unseriousness to the entire thing.

ABRAMS: Yeah.

GERBER: You’ve described your writing course of as a horrible trick you’re enjoying on your self. [Laughs] Are you able to broaden on that?

ABRAMS: For certain. It’s sort of a lure. In case you have any sort of public-facing job that requires you to confront your self, it’s a double-edged sword. There’s a cathartic side, but in addition my face and identify are connected. I alter my thoughts about shit day-after-day, so it’s humorous to consider anyone feeling like they actually know me by these time capsules. That’s what songs are for me, they’re like diary entries. However I don’t need everybody to know me.

GERBER: We’ve talked about your hesitation to specify precisely what a track is about so that folks can kind their very own relationships to the artwork that you simply put out.

ABRAMS: Precisely.

GERBER: I believe the artwork that you simply’ve been making has all the time been very truthful. Have you ever ever felt concern round releasing music particular to folks in your life? And the way do you navigate the truth that your artwork, whereas it’s deeply private, will finally embrace and have an effect on different folks?

ABRAMS: It’s powerful. It’s a one-sided narrative, and the topic is rendered defenseless to a level. I’ve not been mature or form previously round releasing issues that folks I do know personally may hear. You need to really feel such as you aren’t censoring your self, however there’s a good solution to do it. So now I’ve conversations with folks forward of placing issues out into the world. I’m simply, like, “Right here’s how I felt about you.” It’s exposing and it’s shitty typically.

GERBER: Additionally in flip, it’s flattering.

Gown Saint Laurent by Anthony Vaccarello.

ABRAMS: Perhaps. I like being the muse, however my first intuition is airing out all my soiled laundry, and that’s not the individual I need to be. I’m studying in actual time methods to be a greater fucking individual. And it’s humorous, as a result of we’re in our early twenties.

GERBER: Yeah.

ABRAMS: We’re studying methods to be folks and methods to navigate relationships. However I really feel prefer it comes with the territory to an extent. Like in the event you’re relationship a author, or in the event you’re relationship an actor, they’ll channel the shit that they went by with you to make a scene—or a painter, or a sculptor, or regardless of the fuck.

GERBER: And we’ve talked about how the individuals who have an effect on us or encourage us should not all the time the folks we’ve spent probably the most time with. Do you’re feeling like there’s a standard theme amongst the folks you have got traditionally been impressed by? Or is the artwork actually extra indicative of the emotions they incite in you?

ABRAMS: That’s such a fucking good query.

GERBER: Thanks. [Laughs]

ABRAMS: It relies upon. After I take into consideration the folks I’ve been concerned with, everybody’s extremely totally different. So, I don’t suppose there’s a kind or a character trait that I’m going after. However the by line for me traditionally has been copious quantities of projection earlier than I’ve actual info. I lust exhausting and I really like having an enormous crush on somebody. I don’t suppose that a number of songs I’ve written are about folks I barely know in any respect.

GERBER: Yeah. I believe after we’re in an energetic state of experiencing life, we’re not all the time giving ourselves time to course of. No less than for myself—

ABRAMS: I truly really feel like you’ll be able to write wherever you’re and it doesn’t have to be a e-book. You may get concepts and emotions down in just a few phrases. My favourite sort of songwriting is de facto conversational, so I really feel fortunate that that’s the place I’m going instantly. I discover myself capturing issues within the second an increasing number of as I grow old. I will even replicate again on what I wrote within the eye of the storm and chuckle. That’s a number of what this new album is. It was written because it was felt—granted, 12 hours after, once I’m alone in a room, or once I’m dwelling with Audrey and we will scream about it.

GERBER: I’ve all the time been drawn in direction of an absence of perspective in writing, or contradiction, as a result of it feels very personal and exposing to let somebody in on these doubts.

ABRAMS: I write dramatically and don’t all the time really feel the best way that I did the day prior to this, even. However I additionally suppose—to begin with, the world is burning and all of us really feel insane about every little thing. And at this level in my life, I’m writing from the attitude of a youngster who feels insane.

GERBER: [Laughs]

ABRAMS: I’ve been the least cautious and the least considerate about reception. I believe it comes from a spot of simply craving enjoyable. Throughout COVID we have been tremendous remoted, and I used to be listening to a number of sluggish, unhappy music, and it closely influenced what I used to be writing. However now it’s not what I need to placed on. It’s not the vitality that I need to embody once I’m strolling down the road with my headphones on. I’m strolling down the road to—

GERBER: The Challengers soundtrack. Oh wait, that’s me. [Laughs] It’s truly fairly complicated as a result of traditionally I’ve all the time listened to actually unhappy music—

ABRAMS: I do know.

GERBER: After which typically I’ll be in New York strolling down the road and I’m listening to a very upbeat, blissful track, and I’m like, “Who am I? And why am I in a superb temper?”

ABRAMS: I do know. It’s a craving. We’re animals.

Jacket Celine by Hedi Slimane. Denims Gracie’s personal.

GERBER: Do you ever catch your self residing your life in a approach that gears in direction of sustaining or inspiring your artistic course of?

ABRAMS: The previous month, I’ve had a number of conversations with associates who’re doing this additionally. An in depth pal who I love deeply—she’s only a couple years older than me—was encouraging me to be as younger as I’m proper now and go dancing and simply attempt issues. That’s new for me, however I’m loving doing it, and I really feel prefer it’s having a very nice impact on my work. The imagery in my writing is totally different as a result of I’m in new rooms, I’m assembly folks. I’m interested by everybody I brush shoulders with on the street. And clearly, and we talked about this final time—

GERBER: I interviewed you.

ABRAMS: Sure. In regards to the variations between cities. I undoubtedly really feel like New York is extremely conducive to my private life and likewise writing.

GERBER: Yeah. I additionally suppose there’s a facet to artwork the place it emerges from an absence of consolation. Are you able to consider a selected occasion the place discomfort straight led to the creation of one thing that has grow to be significant to you?

ABRAMS: This entire album I had an enormous crush. I felt prefer it was unrequited. It was embarrassingly the primary time in my life I ever had that feeling. It spun me out. I used to be like, “What the fuck is happening? I don’t know myself. I’m awkward in all places. How do I perform?” It made me nuts for a minute. And I’m so blissful that I’ve this album to carry on the opposite facet of that humorous whirlwind. It’s proof that the writing is cathartic—it’s typical that I’ll write a track and really feel like I now not have the sensation that the track is about. It’s like an exorcism.

GERBER: Having an outlet that so in truth depicts the precise emotion is necessary, as a result of recollections typically grow to be details, and that makes me very unhappy.

ABRAMS: It’s humorous although, as a result of songwriting isn’t all the time actual, both. It’s one of many best artwork types to imagine is solely autobiographical, since you hear somebody’s voice, their identify is connected, and their face is within the nook. You’re like, “That’s them. They’re saying it to me straight.” However it doesn’t truly all have to be about me.

GERBER: Yeah. I consider songwriters that I love and Taylor [Swift]’s one in all them, and a number of her songs are about fictionalized characters. And you should use these characters to discover your individual feelings. It doesn’t must be utterly autobiographical.

ABRAMS: Completely. I keep in mind her speaking concerning the reduction that she felt not having to jot down each element about her private life across the time when she launched Folklore. If you happen to’re a storyteller, whether or not you’re referencing your individual life or anyone else’s, hopefully you’ll be able to reduce by.

GERBER: Talking of Taylor Swift, you toured along with her, and I think about that has had such a profound influence on you as an artist and only a individual. Are there any particular recollections or classes that you simply took dwelling from that tour?

ABRAMS: It’s fairly inconceivable to summarize the influence of that have. So many points of it modified my life. Everybody who’s concerned within the tour is a mirrored image of how glorious an individual she is and the way sensible a businessperson she is. She’s an Olympic athlete. She is so disciplined and so current, and I believe that’s what her followers really feel. The truth that for 4 months straight, 3 times every week, I obtained to be surrounded by her fan base and watch the present from each single place you may within the stadium, it felt like I used to be in school once more. I used to be learning each side of it.

GERBER: Proper.

ABRAMS: It expanded my creativeness and it additionally made me need to make music that may have the ability to fill the area extra. The size is insane, however Taylor could make it really feel like the one two folks in the whole stadium are you and her. There’s such energy to her writing, and it’s by no means stopped inspiring me since I discovered it. I don’t keep in mind a time in my life earlier than Taylor Swift’s music was a safety blanket and a touchstone for each emotional up or down in my life.

GERBER: After which sustaining that.

 Sweater and Bra Prada.

ABRAMS: It’s loopy. My aim is longevity. And I’m so impressed by the best way that she has run this factor and nonetheless desires to provide everybody every little thing, but in addition has boundaries.

GERBER: I think about it may be very tough to have boundaries, particularly whenever you’re performing these deeply private songs to giant crowds.

ABRAMS: Properly, opening and headlining really feel very totally different. Opening is pure pleasure in that it’s not about me in any capability.

GERBER: After I’m watching, it’s about you.

ABRAMS: [Laughs] Properly, it’s particular to only have an incredible view of all of her followers, it’s the best. And truthfully, I really feel so fortunate that I get to be singing my songs. However actually, I’m simply soaking it up like everybody else. I believe exhibits typically recharge my battery reasonably than drain me, as a result of there’s simply one thing about connecting with folks in that approach, particularly in rooms which might be packed.

GERBER: I’ve had the privilege of seeing you play very small, intimate venues and I’ve seen you play huge stadiums with tens of hundreds of individuals. Is there one that you simply want? Or does it really feel the identical?

ABRAMS: It undoubtedly doesn’t really feel the identical. I don’t put on my glasses onstage and I can’t see in a stadium typically. However across the Good Riddance launch when the vinyls have been on sale, I did a ton of in-store acoustic exhibits, simply me and nevertheless many individuals match within the document retailer. There’s one thing about that have that makes it my favourite. I really feel very fortunate that I like to do it.

GERBER: Yeah. But in addition to have a job that’s consistently thrilling and thrilling and terrifying. At any time when I get nervous about my job, I remind myself how fortunate I’m to have a job that also makes me nervous.

ABRAMS: Completely.

GERBER: What do you hope folks will take away from seeing you headline your upcoming tour?

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ABRAMS: That typically it’s approach higher to seek out folks whenever you really feel loopy than to cover away. And The Secret of Us title—I’m so prepared for the “us” to be me and the viewers. There’s one thing so particular about having the ability to specific the sort of common shit that’s on this album. I really feel prefer it hits numerous totally different factors in relationships: It’s tremendous full of affection and lust after which additionally the pissed-off moments. I’ve by no means been extra excited to play something, and the group is so central to this album.

GERBER: Okay. I’ve extra questions for you. What’s a query you by no means get requested in interviews that you’d like to be requested?

ABRAMS: Oh, fuck me.

GERBER: [Laughs] I do know. It’s sort of annoying, but it surely additionally will be silly—or one thing very deep.

ABRAMS: What would you say to that?

GERBER: It was once, what are you studying proper now? However I simply began asking myself these questions.

ABRAMS: That is the perfect query.

GERBER: However being associates with you means an countless provide of unimaginable poetry suggestions. So what are your desert island poets?

ABRAMS: Oh god, Mary Oliver; Robert Bly, typically. Marie Howe is up there proper now. Jane Hirshfield. And really—no I gained’t say that.

GERBER: [Laughs] I’m going to ask you once more after this.

ABRAMS: Okay. Yay. Thanks for the interview.

GERBER: Thanks for letting me do that. Slumber Get together Sunday.

ABRAMS: Okay. Love you. Bye.

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Hair: Tiago Goya utilizing Oribe at Residence Company.

Make-up: Sara Tagalo utilizing Gucci Magnificence at Residence Company.

Nails: Sreynin Peng at Opus Magnificence.

Pictures Assistants: Kurt Magnum and Sandy Rivera.

Style Assistant: Isabella Manning.

Manufacturing Coordination: Cecilia Alvarez Blackwell.

Location: Milk Studios.